Would Ministry Be Easier Without People?

Hosts: TJ Freeman, Joe Wagner, and Josh MacClaren

Summary: In this episode of Rural Church Renewal, host TJ Freeman welcomes Anthony Caiola to discuss the integration of counseling and discipleship within the church. They explore the importance of viewing counseling as part of disciple-making and share practical ways to equip church members for these responsibilities. Anthony emphasizes the necessity of pastors being emotionally and spiritually healthy themselves and offers insights into decentralizing pastoral care by empowering lay leaders. The conversation also touches on the unique challenges and opportunities in rural ministry, challenging listeners to break free from legalism and embrace authenticity for the sake of Christ's mission. 

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Transcript

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TJ: It's a really busy week. You're behind on your sermon. There's all kinds of stuff going on in the church and then it hits, somebody knocks on your door and they got a problem. It's a problem that you're not even exactly sure how to address.

Has this ever happened to you? If you're like most people in ministry, it definitely has, maybe pretty often. Well, today is an episode that you are going to love because we have a guest on who's gonna talk to us all about what it means to see counseling as discipleship for the sake of God's glory and the good of your church.

So stay tuned. 

Thank you for joining us for another edition of Rural Church Renewal. My name is TJ Freeman, and just like you, I serve in a church in what most of people think is the middle of nowhere, something I've really come to love. Josh and Joe are normally along for this ride, but they're not here on this episode today.

They are literally downstairs eating subs right now as we speak. But I do have a special guest who's with me here today. So Anthony, could you just. Tell us a little bit about who you are and why you're here. 

Anthony: Yeah, man, I'm glad to be here. It's exciting to be on the podcast. Uh, my name's Anthony Caiola. I pastor a church in Clearfield, Pennsylvania, which is, uh, about an hour south and an hour west.

It's a church we planted back in 2020 and, just very excited to be here and get to share a little bit about what we've been experiencing on the job, on the ground. 

TJ: And for those of you who have no idea where an hour west and all that kind of stuff is, we are in the middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania.

Yes. So you understand generally what Anthony's talking about for like-minded guys to hang out. Sometimes you have to drive, yeah, a couple hours just to spend time like this. So whatever state, it's worth it. Whatever state you're in, you have the same thing. You got the dude who's an hour north and an hour west or whatever and that's awesome.

So I'm really glad to have you over here today. Yeah, glad to be here. Anthony came to our staff meeting at the church today and talked to us a lot about the topic we're covering on the podcast today, which is discipleship and counseling. 

Anthony, can you tell us a little bit about where you started to get especially interested in counseling and discipling?

Anthony: Yeah. It's funny because I don't know that I ever personally had an interest in counseling in, in regards to what you traditionally think about counseling. I actually used to joke that I was a, a little bit more of a systems guy, a little bit more of a to-do list guy, and I didn't have that gift of compassion.

It didn't feel like. But one of the interesting things that I discovered, because I also would consider myself a discipleship guy, which I think we all should be. And when you're doing discipleship, when you're really making disciples on the ground in relationship, sitting across the table from somebody and digging into not only the scriptures, but their very lives, right?

Scripture talks about sharing their very lives. Paul said. You start to realize that so much of disciple making, so much of discipleship, is this life on life, conversation, digging into real practical issues, and then looking to the scripture to, to bring life and breathe life into those moments. And so, I, I didn't know that I had a love for counseling until I started realizing I really had a passion about making disciples and these two things that are pretty much synonymous.

Mm-hmm. 

TJ: You said something interesting a second ago. You feel like you're more of a systems guy, and I know you to be an exceptional systems guy, and it sounds like you're saying maybe sometimes. We have a divide in our minds where we think either I'm good at the behind the scenes stuff or I'm good at the people.

Yeah. Stuff. Do you think a lot of pastors feel that way? 

Anthony: Yeah, I think so. I think there's so many different things that happen in the day-to-day life of a pastor. So many, especially in the modern church. I mean, you're the tech guy, you're the website guy, you're the counseling guy, you're the preacher.

You're the everything guy. But I think if you're gonna step into ministry no matter where your specific gifts or, or areas of knowledge land, um, if you are going to be a pastor, you're a shepherd. And a shepherd has to be, on the ground walking with their people, whether it's their people inside the church or even taking advantage, especially in these rural contexts of just being in their community.

Sometimes I've found that I, I become the, the resident pastor in our community. For people who don't have a church, they're, they're maybe not even looking to go to church. But when a crisis happens in their life, there's a relationship that's been cultivated where they know that there's someone who loves 'em.

They know that there's someone who's gonna speak truth into their life, and they're gonna walk alongside them. 

TJ: So what I'm hearing you say is maybe it's not just that you're especially good at systems or you're especially good at people, but as a pastor, we have a lot of broad responsibilities.

Ranging from all that stuff you just said. Stuff I gotta get done during the week and then I'm out in the community. And I'm also serving in a kind of a pastoral function in my town now in a small town. That's especially true. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

TJ: Like you, you go to the grocery store. I was talking to a, a pastor from another church in a big area.

He said only one time in seven years. Did he ever see one of his church members in church? You said something similar to this. Yeah. When was yours? How long did you go? 

Anthony: So five years. I was, uh, five years on the ground in North Jersey. Very, very densely populated area. Our county, that you could hit top to bottom about 20 minutes.

Uh, had about 900,000 people in it and I ran into one of our congregants once at a grocery store in, in almost five years of being there. 

TJ: So you're the second pastor in a short amount of time i've heard say that. In a small town that's not true. Yep. You go to the grocery store and you're bumping into everybody with your own shopping cart.

I mean, you either know or recognize most people in the store, which means most people know or recognize you. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

TJ: So you have some responsibilities just to, well, let me put it this way. You're kind of like on stage or in the spotlight everywhere you go. Yeah. In your small town. So all of that.

Concoction of, I'm busy in the church and I am in the public eye, in the community, can bring a kind of weight that feels like, I can't imagine actually counseling regularly. And on top of that I might not feel super comfortable counseling. How would you encourage a pastor who just feels like man, I just wanna farm out the counseling?

Yeah. I'm not sure I'm equipped to do something like this. 

Anthony: Yeah. And so I, I think it's twofold. I think certainly it makes sense at times if you've got a great network of either, whether it's your elders who've been well trained, whether you know a good Christian or biblical counselor that you can recommend people go see.

Certainly I don't as, as a lead pastor, I don't have the time to spend 10 weeks with somebody, uh, working through a lot of tough issues. So I take advantage of those times where I might be able to meet with someone once or twice and then be able to recommend them out. There are times where I do have to get on the ground for, you know, an extended period of time and, and where you don't feel qualified, I would simply say take advantage of the opportunity not only to walk alongside those individuals, but trust in your knowledge of the word and your application of the gospel.

And, and I think that's two fold. Uh, I think one, because I've yet to encounter a situation that the gospel cannot speak to. And then a second component is my preaching is better because I'm on the ground, right? And so me being on the ground walking with individuals and understanding not just the macro theology of how scripture applies or whatever.

Personally, how I've learned to apply the gospel in a specific situation lets me apply my messages with much more potency. Not that I'm calling individuals out from the stage or telling their stories, but that I'm just able to understand beautifully how the gospel speaks to their everyday issues, not just that macro calling.

TJ: Something that's cool about that that I've noticed is that also shapes me. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

TJ: You know, being around people who are walking through hard stuff. Spiritually helps form me. And then on Sunday when we all come together to publicly worship the Lord and encourage each other, and I know, Hey, that guy's walking through a really hard time.

Yeah. Or that lady is really struggling this week, and I see they're singing the word of God to each other anyway. Yeah. They're engaged in praying, they're looking very attentively as you're preaching. That kind of stuff just stirs up in my own soul. That's good. A greater desire to pursue the Lord in my life.

So that stuff's actually really good. Do you have any pet peeves? 

Anthony: In general? 

TJ: Yeah.

Anthony: Man, I don't know. Pet peeves. 

TJ: Lemme get the ball rolling, I'll tell you mine. Yeah. What is the last book of the Bible? 

Anthony: Revelation.

TJ: Right? How many of them? 

Anthony: How many revelation? Yeah, there's one. One. There's no S at the end of it. Yeah. 

TJ: So if we put the S on it, we're in trouble. That's good. I didn't have that pet peeve until Josh MacClaren put it in my head.

Oh yeah. And then now I, how dare he every time. 

Anthony: How dare he? Or if I could see that as a pet peeve. 

TJ: If I'm, I do have a few. Okay. Yes. Okay. If I'm preaching Psalm two, how many Psalms am I preaching? 

Anthony: You're preaching one Psalm. 

TJ: Same thing. Yeah. It's not Psalms two. Yes, it's Psalm two from the Psalms. How do you pronounce E-S-P-R-E-S-S-O?

You lost me after the first three letters. Okay. ESP. Yep. R-E-S-S-O. The coffee drink. Oh, espresso. Okay. Right. 

Anthony: It's not X espresso. 

TJ: Yes, it's not espresso. Oh goodness. Drives me crazy in the same way. It's not especially, it's especially. 

Anthony: Yeah. Yes. Okay. So although out in rural America, you might get in trouble for correcting that.

Oh yes. I have two that I, I that are in one bible, one and one rural one. 'cause I'm not a rural guy. Hit me. Originally. Yep. Yeah. So the first one is when someone says yeah, wherever two or more are gathered drives me insane. Okay. Because it's a church discipline passage. Oh, right. And so I'm always like, well, does God not hear me if I'm by myself?

Right? Is is he? No, by miss not here. So they misquote Matthew 18. So that one, one drives me a little bit crazy. And then the practical one is out by me. Maybe they don't do it here. They say Slippy. For slippery. Oh! And then the biggest one I would say that is a contention in my home, we debate about this on a regular, is they call eggs, dippy eggs.

TJ: Oh yeah. 

Anthony: Do you have dippy eggs up here? 

TJ: Yeah. What else would you call 'em? 

Anthony: Okay, so the problem for me is it when I ask how you want your eggs, it doesn't tell me how to cook 'em. Oh, so you want them over? So, so there's already a way to tell me you want a dippy easy, medium, hard, right? Yeah. If you want it easy, it's gonna be dippy.

Right? That means I can make it over easy. I could fry it and then flip it, and now that's over. I can make it side up sunny side up, which means I'm not flipping it. So you're, you're telling me how to cook your egg? Yeah. Right? You want 'em scrambled and, and like scrambled easy. That's fine. I'll make 'em runny.

Right? Okay. So when I say guys, how do you want your eggs? 'cause I make breakfast in my home every morning. Yep. How do you want your eggs? And someone yells out dippy. I could make poached, I could make soft boiled. I could make over easy, sunny side up. I mean, there's a lot of ways to make an egg dippy and it does not instruct me as to how you would like your eggs.

TJ: There you go. And this is how we know you're Italian. Yeah. Yes. That's awesome. Yes. Okay. Here's why I ask about pet peeves. I have another pet peeve that I wanna highlight right now. And it is when pastors say this, this phrase or something like it, I would love the church if it weren't for the people.

Anthony: Hmm. 

TJ: Or pastoring would be so much easier if it weren't for the people. Wow. And it drives me insane and I hear it all the time. It's kinda like one of those things where, when groups of guys who do the same thing, get together and have shop talk. Yeah. Like I imagine butchers are always like, yeah, you know, this lady came in and she ordered, you know, whatever.

And isn't that dumb? We all laugh. Well, pastors when they get together all sometimes are like, Hey, doesn't pastoring stink 'cause of the people? Mm. And it really bothers me. Yeah. Because pastoring is the people. Yes. Like your ministry and then therefore your vocation. It cannot be divorced from people and people are not a problem.

People are not an encumbrance, that's the word I was looking for. They're not an encumbrance to you doing your job. Slowness, because the people aren't ready. 

Anthony: Hmm. 

TJ: Is not a, a roadblock for you, like you've been given a flock by, by Christ to shepherd. Yeah. Ephesians four says that Jesus gave gifts to the church.

And he talks about the role of a shepherd and a, and a teacher, a pastor here in that passage, in Ephesians four, and he's picked you for those people, which is why Peter says, shepherd the flock of God. That's among you. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

TJ: So when we start thinking, man, I got my, my agenda, my desires, my wishes, and the people are standing in the way of those, we've completely missed the target.

So go back to counseling and discipling. Yeah. People are messy. There's a reason that these guys say that phrase, and you're an advocate for getting into the mess, but also figuring out a way to not have it destroy you. Because here's a little bit of a flip side to what I was just saying. If you have 10 people whose lives are falling apart, you can't possibly tend to all 10 of those sheep at the same time.

Yep. Faithfully so. I, I'm hinting a little bit here at what the Bible says anyway we should be doing, but how can we, as pastors or ministry leaders start to empower our people in a meaningful way to carry that load? 

Anthony: Yeah, you, you've given me a few hints there and, and there's a whole lot that I could say on this subject.

I, I wanna go back quick. I will answer that question, but I wanna go back quick. I think ministry can be exciting. Like I said, I'm, I'm a systems guy. I have a entrepreneurial background. I like to get things done. I like to build, I'm, I'm a builder. Nothing makes me come alive personally, like finding a problem to solve.

All of those things are peripheral to the people. Early in my ministry, stepping in, I remember saying, have someone telling me, you know, the sheep bite. And, and I, I appreciated that because it set the expectation that the sheep would bite. Yeah. And, and I think when we talk about counseling, the, the very first thing that's important is we're trying to help other people get emotionally and spiritually healthy.

Is the pastor themself being emotionally and spiritually healthy? If you need something from the sheep, right. I, I don't know much about sheep herding and other than my, my study. 

TJ: You do go to the fair a million times. 

Anthony: I know. I do go to the fair. I am around sheep and the, the barn with all the, the sheep, the goats, the cows that end up getting butchered in town.

All of the animals, but I don't know much about sheep herding per se. Right, okay. Yes. I gotcha. And so, um, uh, one of the interesting things about that is what I understand is that sheep can't really do much for you, right. That you. They, they produce wool, but that's in time. Like you, you're just bringing them out of the pasture.

You're leading the water, you're leading 'em to the greener pastures. You're fighting off wolves. There's no expectation from the shepherd on a sheep. And I think the moment the pastor has an expectation on their people to do something, to be something, to get their mission and goals accomplished, uh, they have forgotten that the mission and goals of Christ for them as the pastor.

Is the shepherd, as you said, the flock that is amongst them. So I think, and I don't mean to be too aggressive here, uh, I think when we need something, whether that's emotionally, whether that's affirmation, whether that's applause, uh, whether that's just them becoming the cog in our machine to get our mission done. And it could be, you know, we could celebrate it under a good mission.

Like we gotta reach people for Jesus. That sounds really lovely, but when the sheep are dying. On the battlefield so you can get your mission accomplished. You've become parasitic to your church. You're no longer free to serve it. So to answer that question, I think one of the things that we've really worked hard on is taking that Ephesians four passage seriously and saying, it's not our job to do the ministry.

Our ministry is the people, all the other ministry aspects, the events, the activities. All of those things come second to the health and vitality of our people. And it's our biblical call as elders, depending on what office or what gifting you hold to those, uh, five gifts that are mentioned. It's our job to equip the saints so they're healthy enough to do the work of ministry.

And then, um, I had shared this morning at staff meeting if you want me to share about the men in the nets. Yeah, go ahead. Um, that it's interesting that word equip. And I don't know ancient Greek and so I'm not even gonna try to butcher the word here. But, but in looking up that word and studying that word, it, it has kind of a double connotation.

Usually when we think about equipping the saints, it's about, uh, training people, right? But there's another application of that word in that culture, and it was about men, fishermen mending their nets. And so before we train our people to go make disciples to go pull off amazing activities and com, you know, outreach events there is a kind of a biblical command that.

Those five offices are responsible for helping our people mend their own nets to get healthy. So that as they get healthy, they are not only competent, you know, equipped to do, but they're emotionally healthy. So when they do, they, they don't actually just derail the thing. Nothing is more dangerous than a competent person who's emotionally unhealthy.

TJ: Yeah. 

Anthony: Or spiritually unhealthy I should say. 

TJ: That's right. Well, let me just give a little aside on the Greek. I'm glad you didn't say the Greek word. 

Anthony: Yeah. 'cause I probably butchered it this morning. 

TJ: Well, no, that's okay. You know what happens though? What they say about Greek? 

Anthony: What's that? 

TJ: That it's like underwear. Have you heard this? 

Anthony: No. 

TJ: It's really good for support. Yeah, but you shouldn't go around showing it. 

Anthony: Yes. I like that. Yeah, I like that. Well, I didn't show it and I try to clarify. I don't actually know the Greek, 'cause I don't wanna be one of those guys who's like, well, the Greek word is, and then I'm like, do. 

TJ: But you did look it up and you found some support in saying this kind of thing.

Yes. And you should know the fullness of the word. But then we don't have to show our underwear off. Yeah. I don't have to show it now. Use it for sport. 

Anthony: I appreciate that. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. 

TJ: So anyway, yeah. Here's kind of where I think we can go down a bad road is there's a lot of, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna use a nice word, garbage.

There's a lot of garbage out there right now that's trying to get pastors to do self-care, because that's like a buzzword in our culture. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

TJ: And there's a, there's a garbage side of self-care where it's like. You need to advocate for yourself, your, your ministry is worth at least as much as what the school principal puts in.

Yeah. So they should be paying you at least that much. Man, they got, you gotta have healthcare, you gotta have all this stuff. If the parsonage smells bad, you gotta just tell 'em, man, this parsonage stinks. Yeah. All that stuff. That stuff is not very helpful and would not have ever entered the minds of pastors in any other generation. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

TJ: Or missionaries going to the field, and how should we think of ourselves in any higher terms than that? So there's a bad side of self-care that I think is keeping a lot of, especially young men out of hard ministry circumstances. Yeah. Because they've been trained that you shouldn't have to face it like this.

Yeah. And there's a pastoral shortage right now, so you can go find a, a pastor at somewhere else. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

TJ: But then there's a good side of. I'm just gonna keep the label self-care, where it's like if you are not in the word and in prayer and having a good example in your home, 'cause you're leading your home well, and you know financially responsible.

Doesn't mean you're living high on the hog, but you're not getting into debt. You're taking care of your responsibilities. That kind of self-care, if that's what you want to call it, is requisite. Yeah. And I think, Timothy or Paul would just say in Timothy and Titus that these things are requirements.

If you wanna be a pastor, you gotta look a certain way. Yeah. You need to be exemplary in the way that you lead your home and the way that you nurture relationship with the Lord, all that kind of stuff. So that's absolutely huge. So out of that, then recognizing you're going down an unhealthy road to get back to where you were going.

If you're trying to do all the shepherding by yourself. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

TJ: That's impossible. So part of you being a healthy shepherd is saying, my job is not to be crisis mode all the time. Sometimes you gotta do crisis mode. Yeah. But you, you could get a Messiah complex and think that you're supposed to be involved in every single crisis.

Yes. Which is destructive. So give, give us a little bit more, what kind of things are you doing to help get your people actually trained so that when somebody comes to them and they're like, Hey, I have schizophrenia today, I like you tomorrow, I might try to kill you. Yeah. Or they're like, Hey my son is suicidal and I don't know what to do.

Hey, I've got a porn addiction. Nobody knows. I'm telling you. How do you help train the people in your church to know that that's not immediately call Anthony? Right. You know, call the pastor, but like. Here's some steps we can take before we get to that Defcon six level of call the pastor. 

Anthony: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, some of it is just casting vision for our leaders, and so it, you know, in the beginning, right?

We, we planted the church about five years ago. In the beginning it is usually all on your back, right? You're in the early phases of making develop, you know, making disciples and developing those individuals into healthy disciple makers themselves. And so early on it, it was on my shoulders. Now again, part of being emotionally and spiritually healthy is that Messiah complex, right?

So I, I know individuals who, even from a counseling standpoint, they, they almost. Intentionally swoop in when there's trauma or they create it, right? So they'll, they'll find something in your world, they'll be like, oh, you grew up with an alcoholic father. And then they'll start scratching the skin and all of a sudden it starts to bleeding.

They go, I can address the wound. There is a number of ways in which people will, will fall into that place where they feel like they need to be needed. So a little bit of self-awareness in that area and a little bit of willingness to be convicted over where you are feeding your own ego.

But then the goal should always be decentralization. I mean, we should always, as pastors, no matter what it is, whether it's pastoral care, you know, preaching and teaching, we should always be working to build ourselves out of the equation. It's Christ Church, it's not my church. And so if I'm pointing to him at all times and being faithful with a call to equip the saints, then, then the goal is, you know, I have a, a core team of people that I am walking with, and I myself am discipling.

The goal is, is that my methodology in sitting across the table. And digging into the word together, digging in and asking some hard questions, being willing to draw them into relationship, but also challenge them, uh, in accordance with the word, is not only helping them get healthy, but as I continue to cast the vision for their calling to be disciple makers.

They don't even realize it at first, but they're being trained through my example and through the process by which we are equipping them to about face and go do that for someone else. And so, you know, there are times where very practically they might bring something to me and I say, Hey, you got this.

I don't jump right in. Right? I, I intentionally am unavailable, strategically. Yeah, there, there are times where things come to a, across my desk, whether it's strategically within the church or it's relationally, uh, from a counseling perspective where I, I intentionally don't jump in. 

TJ: Okay. So let's pause there.

I'm picturing Pastor Bill in First Church of the Cornfield. There's 50 people in his church, maybe 20 of them show up on a Sunday morning, and he people are so used to going to him. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

TJ: And. What he just heard from you might be a total foreign concept. I intentionally am not going to get involved in this situation.

Anthony: Yeah. 

TJ: Why did you say that? And how can somebody actually do that? 

Anthony: Yeah. So when I say I'm not involved, I, I'm, I'm praying. So I, I'm involved spiritually. Practically, I might, I might empower the individual and say, you know, if, if it comes through another individual, one of our small group leaders, one of our other key leaders I might help coach them.

And part of our discipling time now is not me. Circumventing that individual and jumping in. There are times where that has to happen. It might be above their pay grade or above their training, but if it's something that I discern that it's like, Hey, I, I can coach you to do this. Let's get lunch. We'll talk through this issue.

How would we handle it? I'm gonna ask a whole lot of questions. We're gonna look at the scripture and then I'm gonna say, now go do it. I make myself available in a lot of ways. There are times where there's a, lately, honestly, this summer, we've had two or three issues where, uh, some leaders have brought things to my attention more for accountability's sake.

And I said, Hey, do. Do you need me to get involved? And they go, no, I got it. Uh, and so over time they've felt more comfortable just simply because they've navigated and, yeah.

TJ: I was just gonna say, it's like a muscle that atrophies. Yes. If it's not being used, then you think, well, I'm just not strong there anymore.

Yes. I can't do that. But with some time and some patience and some work, it can become stronger. 

Anthony: Yes. And, and part of empowering them is is, and maybe this is for the, for any pastor that's out there that's worried about counseling, like none of us ever feel equipped going into any circum. Like nothing trains you to walk into a situation where a teenage son has taken their life.

Nothing trains you to walk in even to a basic situation where someone has grandma could have passed away and lived a nice old age and loved Jesus and still, I'm not sure much trains you to walk into that room. You have to be okay. One, relying on the Holy Spirit to recall, to mind the knowledge of the word and, and also knowing when to speak and knowing when not to, and, and just be okay making mistakes and, and circling back sometimes going, Hey, I.

I feel like I talked too much last time we got together, or I feel like I wanted to say this to you, but I for some reason didn't like, you've gotta be okay being the broken, in need of Jesus, pastor who's gonna make mistakes and empowering your people to do that as well. 

TJ: I love that. That's really liberating because sometimes we do start to think if people are coming to me, I have to have an answer.

Yeah. And I think all of us have heard the thing, like it's okay to say, I don't know, and I'm going to dig in, but we, you just said, took it to the next level. Even the next time you meet, Hey, sorry, I kind of messed this up last time. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

TJ: That's okay. We do not have to feel like, you know, when you're preaching, you don't have to be the sage on the stage.

When you're counseling, you don't have to be the guru that somebody came to. Yeah. And you're gonna fix all their problems. So that's really helpful. Let's just get in the Bible together and start praying. Yeah. Can I switch gears just a little bit? 

Anthony: Sure. Yeah. 

TJ: So what we've covered right there is kind of like, what are some first steps to think about doing?

To help other people in the congregation council. And I think what I hear you saying is just build into people and tell 'em they're supposed to do it. Yeah. And give them ups. Yeah. Like give 'em chances to actually go do it. So, I think that's awesome.

Part of what I think I hear you saying is. You're teaching the congregation to be really real and authentic with each other. When you're in a small town, that can be really hard sometimes, because I gotta be around these people. I am gonna bump into them in the grocery store.

They do know my grandma. You know, there's all these kind of things. So being honest and authentic in a small town, it's hard. Do you have any thoughts on how to overcome that as you're creating a culture of discipling? 

Anthony: I don't know if this is the right answer. Get over yourself would be what I would say. I come, uh, I have no filter. 

TJ: Anthony's from New Jersey, so. 

Anthony: Yeah, yeah. I'm from, I'm from New Jersey originally. I, I've consider myself a rural guy now. We've been out here for about 10 years. Yeah. And I love it. I, I consider this home when we go out to visit family, but I don't have a filter.

Right. And so I will share anything at any time. And, and, and here's really why. I'd like to think it's 'cause I have no filter, but, but deep down from a spiritual perspective, the gospel says I am a sinner in need of a savior. And everybody's okay being a sinner in need of a savior at 30,000 feet trap.

Any one of us on one of our sins and we're, we find all kinds of escape mechanisms to get out from under ride and do that. It was their fault or, uh, you didn't quite understand this, uh, instead of just owning it. Right. And so the wild thing for me about moving into rural and trying to learn and understand his culture that has definitely thrown some of our people off is just trying to confront some of the tendency to have it all together because it is a small town and people will gossip.

I remember, uh, when we first got back here, we visited a more traditional church that my wife had grown up at, and it was a Good Friday service or an Easter service before we had planted the church. And I was dressed in a nice pair of jeans and a, you know, buttoned down that I didn't have tucked in.

And she's like, you, you can't go like that. You, you. I'm like, listen to me. I'm a licensed pastor. If anybody in this room wants to judge me for walking in the door in a pair of blue jeans, they're gonna have to because I'm, I'm after Christ. And, and if this is not gonna be acceptable, we're gonna, I'm gonna smash this culture with a hammer as quickly as I have to because it's idolatry.

And so one of the ways that I have broken through that culture is I am incredibly transparent. Almost to the point of com. Like my family just, this is just how we are, uh, as a family. And so almost to the point of like, nothing's off the table. I mean, there are some things that are off the table, but like we are incredibly transparent.

My wife, and I'll be very transparent about our marriage and some of those early years that were difficult. Uh, we talk about those things so that the person who's first embarrassed is us. We are the first ones exposed saying, look, i'm not perfect. I, I certainly have never been perfect, but this is where Christ has healed us.

Uh, this is where Christ has brought life. This is where we've struggled. And it's somewhat given freedom to our people to go, who cares what the community says? Let them gossip. Let them talk because I've already raised my hand and said, I need a savior. These are just the ways that I specifically need a savior.

This is just how I needed the savior on Tuesday when I lost my cool at work. Mm-hmm. And so it's created for us, modeling it first, and then truly pointing to the cross of Christ and saying, if you need a savior, you need to be honest about your sin. The scriptures call us to confess our sins to one another.

We will never be the fullness of the church that Jesus Christ intended us if we continue to hide and fake it because rural America, everybody knows your business. Um, no. Own it. Own it. And point to the cross and go, yeah, but Christ. 

TJ: Yeah. That's so good. Our responsibility is not to maintain an appearance.

No. And it's not to build up our own reputations. It's to make much of Christ. Yeah. And making much of Christ is about being really honest about where you are and not like celebrating that like, you know. Right. The whole like, should I sin that grace would abound? By no means! Yet my sin and my brokenness does highlight the beauty of the gospel.

Anthony: Yeah. 

TJ: And when I'm trusting in Christ and bringing the gospel to bear on my sins and struggles, I'm actually demonstrating that I'm a citizen of heaven. I'm. Yeah. I'm a foreigner. I'm an alien in this place. And that's what we're supposed to do. So our home actually isn't our little rural place. Right. Our home is in heaven.

And God's put us in that rural place to make him known what a great way to do it. So I love that answer. That's really good. 

Anthony: I, I was gonna say, if I can interrupt you. Yeah, go. I was gonna say, like, I, I think that's one of the reasons that legalism can sometimes, sometimes thrive in the rural church. Because it's already naturally ingrained in the culture.

We're, we're already naturally ingrained in the culture of faking it when we go to the county fair, faking it when we go to work not letting things slip or not being too open or transparent about things. And I've seen it since we've moved out here. And so, you know, you then take that and you put a spiritual hat on it, right?

And, and now it just legalism, just thrives in the rural church. Uh, because that's part of already what rural culture looks like. It's about protecting your image. Uh, and, and the other dark side of that is, uh, for those who've maybe got a rough past, it's really hard to escape that because you come to Christ and 20 years later people are still talking about the idiot you were in high school.

You can't escape it. And so that's something that we, I preach on, I mention often as I can because it's, it's a front against the culture that we're in, uh, that won't either let you become a new creation in Christ and stand in that or point to the cross in the present where you're still in process. 

TJ: Yeah.

That's good. Well, as we wrap up, can you just kind of put a nice little bow on this? So for the person who clicked on this episode and said, yes, I wanna know more about what it means to get out under the weight of the tyranny of the urgent and actually be able to have some intentional ways to lead my people to disciple and counsel one another.

How would you just kind of close this out, saying, here's what we've given you in this episode? 

Anthony: Oh, goodness. Well, first thing I would say, just practically, it starts with you. It starts with you taking serious, your spiritual and emotional and personal health. If you've got trauma, you've got baggage, you've got fear of man issues your sanctification comes first and foremost.

You need to go maybe get and see a biblical counselor, right? There's no shame in that. And I know in rural context sometimes there seems to be some baggage there, but there is no shame in you being discipled. Uh, then I would say, you know. Go find a handful of individuals and invest your life in them.

Sometimes it's the equipping of the saints in regards to training them to fish. Sometimes you'll find as you get in the conversation, it's the mending of the nets. Uh, but as you start to invest your time and your energy relationally in people, you'll find that those things begin to multiply naturally, especially as you.

In that process, start casting a vision for their life that they're called to this exact same thing, whether they have the title of pastor or not. That'll begin to, you know, it's not a fast process, but it will begin to transform the culture of your church from a grassroots movement. 

TJ: Would you agree that if you're in a church, maybe you're a young man, or maybe you're retired from some other career, now you're pastoring and you've got that Church of 20 and they're all 70 year olds?

Yeah. Would you agree that this would still, what you just said, would still be worth pursuing in that context? 

Anthony: Yeah, I think so. I think one of the things our 70 and 80 year olds need is a vision. And some of them are emotionally healthy, some of them are not. Some of 'em are still carrying wounds from their father in their twenties.

But many of them are, many of them, you know, by God's grace have walked with Christ and they're healthy. If they are healthy. Then part of it's casting a vision to say, how can we leverage your wisdom? You're brilliant. You, you've got 50 years of marriage under your belt. How can we, what can I, what can I do from you or how can you help me teach a marriage seminar? Or, uh, finding ways to leverage and cast vision, because at the end of the day, there is no retirement in the church.

We do not, you may retire from full-time ministry, but we never retire as believers in the call to make disciples. And so, uh, I, I would take advantage of that. And then if you're mission is more than just caring for those individuals and you're saying, Hey, I, I want to start a young adult group or whatever.

Then start with a small core care and love those people. Well, they're valuable in the kingdom of God. They're made in the image of God. And then spend the rest of your time. If you've only got 20, 30 elderly individuals who really just are glad you're there to preach Sunday school and, and on Sunday, and they've got the rest of the church function happening, then go invest the rest of your time in your community with a ministry of presence where you can become the pastor of your community, where you can run into people at the county fair, at the coffee shop, uh, where you can begin to coach soccer, baseball or whatever and, uh, and start to shepherd the parents.

Start to build relationship where you can, and you might even find. Maybe a few of them show up at church, and if they don't, you've been faithful with the call. 

TJ: Awesome. That's great. Is there any other nugget you wanna leave before we close this one out? 

Anthony: I might be all out of nuggets, brother. I, I would simply say, don't forget, don't, don't separate out the idea of counseling and disciple making. The call.

The of disciple making is for all of us and, and going deeper. Uh, and the soul care stuff is important because the Bible cares about the spiritual vitality of its people. And so don't separate those things. Make it your mission. Make it your ministry, and you'll be amazed at what God does. 

TJ: Amen. And it is so worth it.

Mm-hmm. It's super duper hard, but absolutely worth it. And then just final point to, to just encourage the listener, the Chief Shepherd is coming. Mm. We're under shepherds. And by the way, not everybody listening is a pastor. You may be a youth leader, you may be a volunteer, you may be the head greeter, whatever.

You clicked on this 'cause it says Rural church renewal. You have a role in this. And your role is to serve knowing that Jesus is coming back and he wants you to use all of your life for the spread of His glory by encouraging his body and sharing the gospel with the loss. So I think Anthony's given you some good resources to do that.

Brother, I just wanna thank you for being on this episode. Yeah, appreciate it and hopefully we'll see you on some future episodes as well. Yeah, man. 

Anthony: Catch you soon. 

TJ: Alright. Joe would tell us. That there's something you need to go raise. If you don't know what you're supposed to go raise, you need to go back and listen to an episode with Joe on it.

It's been a little while. So if you're annoyed by that, like Anthony I are you, write joe@christchurchlife.com. Yeah. And say it's time to get back on the podcast so we know what to raise. So we'll leave you with that. See you next time.