Should Your Rural Church Plant?

Hosts: TJ Freeman, Joe Wagner, and Josh MacClaren

Summary: In this episode of Rural Church Renewal, pastors TJ, Joe, and Josh discuss the urgent need for church planting and revitalization in rural areas, despite the challenges faced by struggling churches. They emphasize that God's mission includes bringing His glory to every corner, including remote places. They share personal experiences and scriptural insights to get rural pastors to consider multiplication as part of their ministry. The conversation covers practical steps for creating healthy church environments, the importance of prayer, and the power of local leadership in transforming their own communities. The hosts stress that while outside help is valuable, much of the transformative work will come from within these communities themselves.

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Transcript

Josh: When your church is barely healthy enough to survive, the last thing on your mind is planting another church or revitalizing a church in another place. What if I told you though, that God intends for you to do just that? So that's what we're gonna talk about on this episode of Rural Church Renewal. 

TJ: Thank you for joining us for another edition of Rural Church Renewal.

We are three wild and crazy rural pastors. Ah, my name's TJ Freeman. I have been a rural pastor for the last 13 ish years. Joined by my friends. 

Joe: Hey, my name is Joe. I'm uh, currently a discipleship associate pastor here at Christ Church and an accidental church planner a long time ago. Did a lot of things wrong.

Josh: What's going on guys? This is Josh McLaren. I didn't wanna plant a church. I had bought a house in a community and then my senior pastor said, what if you planted in another community? And I wanted to smack him. 

TJ: No, you hugged me. Yeah. Alright, well, hey. On this episode, we are talking about church planting in the middle of nowhere, and we know that there are a lot of unhealthy churches in rural places and plenty of communities out there somewhere where there actually is no healthy church at all.

And you may find yourself in that category. Dear listener, you may feel like, Ugh, I'm in a community where there's no healthy church and I'm the pastor of one of the churches in this community. You may feel like your church is really struggling, like ministry's been hard. You may even be wondering if you're gonna make it.

And here we are, three wild and crazy rural pastors telling you that you should think about multiplication. Josh, what are you thinking? 

Josh: Well, I'm thinking about what the Lord has said in Habakkuk two 14, that as the waters, well, the, the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.

And that doesn't just include people. I think it includes, as you often say, TJ, representation. God intends to be represented and glorified over all the earth. And that includes middle of nowhere places, especially middle of nowhere places that have no healthy representation of the local church. So in Genesis, it's be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, subdue it.

We now know that that is primarily done through redeemed image bearers gathered in local churches. 

TJ: Can you say that in one simple sentence? 

Josh: Sure. We need to plant healthy churches everywhere. Okay. Because God wants to be glorified. 

Joe: There you go. And I would also say that in that verse, the knowledge of the glory of God. Yeah. Is shown every place. There's gotta be somebody there to know it. Yeah. They gotta know. 

TJ: Yep. And the church shows off the manifold wisdom of God. So, you know, there's nothing more potent than the church in displaying God's glory. So it's not just Christians somewhere, right? It's Christians organized into this thing called the church.

So what is the deal with rural places? Why are we saying, hey, there's not really a healthy presence of the church across rural America, or is that what we're saying? 

Josh: I think that's what we're saying. I mean, our experience in our locale are churches closing their doors. Pastors leaving ministry after five or even 20 years because they're totally burned out.

People aren't changing. Their numbers are dwindling and they can't be sustained in a full-time pastor position. So I, I do think we're saying that the healthy church or the rural church, excuse me, has been forgotten and is waning. And we need to change that. So the people listening to this podcast need to be the people who, who change it.

Joe: Come on. So I was on the Twitters the other day. Oh, hey. And there was a conversa. X, you know, I just joined that. Did you? Yeah. That's, that's my jam. But anyway, I was on that thing the other day and there was a conversation going on between two church planters. And one guy said have you ever considered planting in a rural area?

And the other other guy was like, why would I wanna plant in the rural area? There's churches all over the place. There's four or five different churches in each town there. And I was like, got into the replies. I was like, are they healthy churches? Are they preaching the gospel? Are they biblical churches?

Are the preachers there preaching expositional sermons? Are they actually good expositional sermons that people can understand? There can be churches all over the place that are not really that healthy. 

Josh: Yeah. I actually, I see a pattern in rural places that actually unhealthy churches that are big and have resources to expand are going to what we would, I guess consider larger areas.

And then the people from these rural places are driving to those unhealthy churches instead of seeking to represent God in the place that they're in and the community they're in, they're driving to these unhealthy representations. 

Joe: Also, I just want to make sure that you know that I'm not taking pot shots at the rural church.

We love the rural church. We love the rural church. Yeah, absolutely. Why we're talking about every single one to be healthy and to grow and to fill up and to be preached with, with great preaching and raise up those preachers that are there to be able to help them too. Yeah. So we're not advocating for, for anything negative in that particular case?

Just really trying to, to show you the urgency. Yeah. Of what it is. 

TJ: Anecdotally, it does seem like there's a decline in, in the rural church. 

Joe: There. There's no, no line there, that's for sure. 

TJ: And it is true that there's also a decline in population. And there's a correlation there for sure. That doesn't negate the biblical mandate for us to be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it because God wants total saturation of his glory.

Yep. So you mentioned the water covering the sea. Every time I've ever touched the sea, I've gotten wet without exception. That's because the water is totally saturated. I mean, the sea is totally saturated with wetness. Is that how I should say it? Sure. I think that's the right way to say it. 

Josh: Can you say that in a sentence?

Yeah. So, I got, you got it. 

TJ: I can say that God wants the earth to be as glory saturated as the sea is water saturated. 

Joe: Sure. That'll work Paul. 

TJ: That's a sentence. And right now. In rural places. There are a lot of communities with legacy churches that are truthfully not healthy. We've watched many shut their doors.

We've watched many have a hard time filling their pulpits. We've watched many congregations bully for tradition. I mean, there's all kinds. 

Joe: We've seen three churches in the same town or within six miles of one another, and they've each got six or eight or maybe 10 people in them.

Josh: Yeah. Maybe, maybe we could say that in the same way that a, a desert that was one in ocean. Mm. Has, has water dryness. Death valley. Yeah. Now there are rural places that have God's glory dryness. Ooh, look at this. Go fossil. There's just fossil needs to fossils to be saturated, baby. Yeah. Just fossils. 

TJ: Yep.

Rocks that move themselves. So is that in Death Valley? I don't know. I've been there once. It was amazing. Yep. Anyway. I was being like, is that Ezekiel somewhere? No.

So yeah, we also would have to recognize that there are, that's probably a misconception that there's five churches in every small town.

We just started an effort to plant a church in a community that's rural with zero churches. There's not one single church in that whole community. There's a church building. It has the appearance that there's a church, but ain't no church there, and that's happening all over rural America. There are all kinds of communities where there's not one single representation of the gospel.

Even more, where we would say there's just no evangelical witness whatsoever. 

Josh: So, so we know what God wants. What he want? He wants to be glorified. He wants his glory to be filled and saturated over the earth. So we get asked the question, well, what would it look like if God got what he wanted? We actually get a picture of that in Revelation chapter seven.

After this, I looked and behold a great multitude that no one could number from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages standing before the throne and before the lamb. Clothed in white robes with palm branches in their hands and crying out with a loud voice. Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne and to the lamb, God is going to get what he wants.

He's going to have his glory fill the earth as the water covers the sea, and he's gonna do it by reaching every people, tribe, nation, and language gathered in the middle of nowhere or big cities. So I think we have to ask the question, what do we do in the meantime? You know, we're in the middle of all this.

How do we get from point A God is gonna be glorified to point B. It actually happens when all of these people are gathered before his throne. 

TJ: We wait for the Southern Baptist Convention to launch their Send Rural campaign.

Josh: I don't think they're gonna do that, TJ. Why not? Well, because, it doesn't seem very strategic to some to go to a town of 600 people, so that God would be represented there. 

TJ: Well, we asked the seminaries, there's bigger fish to fry. We asked the seminaries to send us guys. 

Josh: You know, how many seminaries we went to this past year, and we got zero residents from them to come to a rural place. 

TJ: Yes. But they all had Keller in their backpacks. Yes, yes they did.

Yeah. So, which we like Tim Keller, by the way. We love them. All right, so the seminaries aren't sending us the guys, the denominations aren't sending us the guys. How are we supposed to see a transformation of rural people, rural places without some kind of sending of the masses from bigger places?

Josh: Well, it might be God's intention to use the very people that have grown up and have called that place home to be the instrument by which he changes that place. 

Joe: Let me just ask a question. Josh, where were you born? 

Josh: Troy, Pennsylvania. 

Joe: Which is how many miles away? 

Josh: Bradford County. Ah, 25. I dunno. It's like a half an hour drive.

Joe: I think TJ and I were born in the same time. Same hospital. Same hospital. We are all local to the areas where we are administering it. Mm-hmm. Which makes us yokels. Yes. And rednecks and all the things you wanna say. 

Josh: Ooh. I think it makes a big difference because when, when you are local to an area, that doesn't mean you can't parachute in and be a change for the gospel.

TJ: But what have we seen with most of the guys who've parachuted in? 

Josh: They're not here anymore. That's right. Yep. They head out. I think there's the, like, okay, this is a silly example. I, I often joke about how old identities die hard. So I was a fanatic football player and I was, I was a good. With a U or two O's?

What, what? Football with a, because you're wearing soccer jersey's. I know. I am two o's football, American football. And I was a good kicker. I was. 

Joe: You were a great kicker, Josh.

Josh: I was all American. Yeah, I was. I wasn't an all American. I was an Allstate player though. 

TJ: In, in our book you were all American.

Josh: Yeah. Thanks TJ. Anyway, it's been 12 or 14 years. I am now helping coach in my local town and there are still dudes that come up to me and know who I am and what I did, and that just like immediately brings a bridge. That I can talk to them about football, I can talk to them about what I'm doing now.

I can invite them to church. Like there's just something about being in the area you're in, being an indigenous person to, to seeing multiplication happen, not just in your locale, but the, the areas around you. 

Joe: Do you wanna give like a 30 second synopsis of the meeting that we had two weeks ago about sending a local guy to a, the town where he grew up in?

Josh: Yeah. We've identified a place that I think at least five churches have some vested interest in to see a healthy representation of the church. We have a guy and we have churches who would probably be willing to send people. It's just a matter of praying about it and trying to resource that guy. He's from there.

Everyone knows him. Everyone knows his family. His dad has been, he's the only public high school teacher that still teaches hunter safety in the state of Pennsylvania. It's like such a neat little statistic. If he would were to go there and pastor, he just has I think, 10 steps up from a guy parachuting into pastor there, because everyone knows him, he has history there.

People love him because he continues to be a support to the community. 

Joe: In our meeting that we had, we were discussing it and talking about it, and, and somebody brought up strategy is like, is this the right building? Is this the right town? And like, is everything coming together and seeming to point right there?

And kind of the answer to that was we need to plug the light bright piece into that spot that's dark and oh my goodness, can we get a local guy? Mm-hmm. That can go back to his hometown. Yep. This makes all the sense in the world. 

TJ: Now, we don't want to dissuade people who would wanna parachute. 

Josh: Sure. No, no, no, no.

We want people from seminary. Oh, please. That's like, hey, if you're at a seminary right now, listening to this. We have a residency we want you to come, like, for sure. 

Joe: Well, we're playing hard to get, actually. I, I don't know if we want you 'cause it's really cool out here and Awesome. 

TJ: To be fair. I'm not sure we do have any slots this year.

Maybe one. Maybe one. Yeah, we have one left. 

Joe: So you better get your. 

TJ: Get your apps in. Your app in, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, we, the strategy will require both. Yeah. We're praying for more and more indigenous people to, to go pastor in the communities that they grew up in, but we also are praying for more and more outsiders to come in.

Josh: But that, so that, that leads me to, to the fact that like, pastor, you have a role to play and the reality is it doesn't matter if we have a local guy or a parachuting guy, you are not gonna be able to do it on your own. Yeah. Like you, you are going to need, what God's gonna do, he's gonna do through all of Christ's people, not just you.

And what he's gonna do, he's gonna do it through leadership that prioritizes empowering those people. So whether or not you're pastoring a church of 15 or a hundred, you have a role to play to equip the saints for the work of ministry. And then remind, be reminded that the work of ministry includes multiplying in other places. Uh, because there are, I'm sure rural pastor, that there are places around you that aren't representing God. And you have, we, we are gonna, we are arguing that you have a responsibility to make a difference there. Not just see a healthy church and healthy saints rise up in your local church, but then see that multiplied and expanded in your area. 

Joe: Circling around. Local pastor in that local church who thinks that you don't have much to offer. I guess the point is you got a lot to offer. Yeah, because you are right there. You are boots on the ground and the town down the road, 6, 10, 12 miles away. That's local to you, and so you are particularly positioned to be able to reach them.

Yep. 

TJ: Yeah. I think about, we had a brother who fought in World War II in our church and his group, what do they call it? Plat- Platoons. Josh, you're a history teacher. 

Josh: So are you man. 

TJ: Okay. Yeah, we're gonna call it that. Yeah. His platoon. Yeah. Was circled by an enemy, completely surrounded. That's the word I was looking for.

And the, they were hoping for an airstrike. Against the enemy so that they could get outta there. And the airstrike never came. That's kind of what I think we do as rural people sometimes. We're right here in this area. We're surrounded by the enemy. We're hoping that there's gonna be outsiders that come in and save the day.

That's usually not what happens, and it's not what happened for this brother either. His platoon was not saved by an airstrike. You know? Who helped him? Who helped him? There was a neighboring company platoon that'll work. Platoon. Who became aware of the situation over there and they mobilized to go help out their fellow soldiers who were trapped.

And it was the local platoon that saved the other platoon. There's too many platoons in this story story at this point. It's all good. You got it though. But that's, that's what we need to think about as churches. There's a community around you that's surrounded by darkness and there are people there. There's probably some Christians who even live there.

And you may be ragtag, you may be struggling, you may not think that you have the resources to do this, but if you've got a group of Christians there and you know the heart of God for that region, you just have to get after it. 

Josh: Yeah. And you're growing, you're growing to be conviction led, and you're seeing the outcomes of pursuit of God, fruits of the spirit.

TJ: How many fruits are there of the spirit? 

Josh: I think nine. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. 

TJ: I, I got you in a, in a trap, Josh. Nine. What? The fruit of the spirit is. 

Josh: Oh my goodness. Yeah. Hulu. Sorry. Anyway, technicality moving on. Uh, they're growing in their stewardship of life.

They are walking in their spiritual giftedness and they're sharing their grace stories. Like if those are the things you're shooting at, then you have so much to offer. Yeah. Like we don't wanna spread garbage. You know what I mean? Like, we don't wanna, we don't want to spread unhealthiness. So I think you, you probably have a responsibility to grow in health first, but then when you're there. 

Joe: Here's a convictional challenge.

Would you rather to have a church of 150 in your church? Or would you rather have a church of 50 or 75 in your location and the next town over both of them being healthy? 

TJ: Which one gets after God's plan for creation? Yeah. 

Joe: Which one of those gets after God's plan? 

TJ: Yeah. And that's a good heart check to go which one would I rather see? Yeah. So, yeah, great question. Hey, what are some practical steps then that we could offer, like Josh, you, you planted a rural church? Uhhuh. What are some ways that you laid the groundwork for that before you just went out and said, Hey, we have a church now. 

Josh: Yeah, it's great. I got five for you.

We need to pray and then when you're done praying, you should pray and then when you're tempted to not pray, be convicted and, and pray some more. Psalm 1 27, 7 there. Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.

I, I think this is talking about families. I think it's talking about churches. Unless God works, it does not matter how many, how much money or resources or people or pastors you throw at a place. If God is not behind it, building it and watching it, it's gonna be in vain. Mm. So we must pray. We must depend upon God to not just start the work, but continue to work and see the work to its completion in Christ.

TJ: And then when they're done praying, what should they do? 

Josh: Pray. Oh, good. Yeah. You're up to four. Yep. Yep. We should remember the gift of the Holy Spirit. If we're reminded that what God is gonna do, he is gonna do through all Christ's people, uh, it is through the Holy Spirit that those people are, um, empowered, sanctified, made to look more like Christ, uh, who are gifted to actually share their grace stories and point others to the gospel.

So the Holy Spirit, we need to be walking in, in step with the spirit, not gratifying the desires of the flesh, but seeking to glorify the Lord. 

TJ: So those are two ways that every single rural pastor can prep for this. Yeah. You can be praying for communities around you. Yep. And you, you really should be.

Yep. And you can be asking yourself, what does God's spirit want to do? And not what can we do, but what could God do through the power of his spirit? 

Josh: Yeah, exactly. Good. I think number three, then once you've, this is a continual thing you're doing, um, is determine your circle of accountability. So God has placed us in a particular location at a particular time for a particular purpose to see the gospel saturated in this location.

We are not in your location, rural pastor, so you need to. Be the one who takes ownership. So how we've sought to do that, we look at our borough, we look at our zip code, and then we look at our county. That's kind of our Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria. As we think about Jesus's command in Acts one, eight, he said, uh, when the Holy Spirit came upon the apostles, they were gonna be his witnesses and the people in Jerusalem, Judea, and Samaria into the ends of the earth.

So, our circles of accountability, at least the smallest ones are 3000 people in our borough. 6,500 people in our zip code. 41,000 people in our county. That is what we're saying we are going to be responsible for. So you just need to sit down and do that. Uh, what is your church responsible for? And that can help gear how you're praying and even how you're, how you strategize.

TJ: What would a target be? Do you have one in your head of the right number of churches per population unit? 

Josh: Yeah. Obviously the Holy Spirit doesn't work off of statistics, but generally there should be one healthy church for every thousand people. 

TJ: So you might need more churches in your own town. Yeah.

Yep. That's a hard sell. 

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. 'cause we're all competing with one another though. No, we're not. I don't, no. Not if we're kingdom minded. Really? Yeah. We're called to make disciples of all nations. And we can't be, we can't feasibly be responsible for every single person. You know, out of, if you've got a church of 50 people and you live in a town of a thousand people, or 2000 people.

If your people are each praying for five people every week, five times 50 is 250, you're only getting at feasibly 250 people. Maybe you multiply that because they're family out of a, out of 2000. Out 2000. So. Yep. So you need help and that's okay. Because what happens when you get help, you get accountability, you get encouragement, you get pooled resources, you get shared responsibility and leadership.

You're not just depending on yourself, or your, your church to be the only ones. And that might take time. But that's something to pray for. Number four, I encourage you, take inventory of your resources. The very barriers that we see, that could affect or, or keep us from wanting to pursue ministry in rural places.

Barriers of place, people and leadership, I think actually are redeemed into tools. So you live in a small place. There's not a lot of amenities. You might have a building that you don't love, but those are the resources God has given you in that place. So wield them and use them. Your building's a tool.

Even though it's a small town that enables close relationships, that will, I think expedite gospel conversations. 

TJ: That's how you leverage your building, right? 

Josh: Well, you mean the buildings we rent? 

TJ: Yeah. And you, you're tasting. So for the guy who's fussing about his building not being so great mm-hmm. To hear from you. Who doesn't have one? The value of the building. 

Josh: Oh, you know, we, we've been in it almost two years. We've spoken with a brother who planted in town, man, a thousand people less than us, and he is gone for about the same time, a year and a half. And he basically said everything changed when we got a physical building.

When we got a physical building. There is this, I don't know what it is in rural places, probably it's traditionalism mixed with, maybe a little bit of like standoffishness where you know, something. That you're in a community that things have stood for tens of hundreds of years, you know, depending on what's there.

And when something new comes in, you're, you're kind of skeptical about it. You think, ah, it's not gonna last, or I'm not gonna invest in that thing. It's new and flashy and, I, I think when, when that brother got a building. It changed the mind of the people in his community and it showed them, oh, they're actually here to stay.

They have invested in physical property. It's not just this weird nebulous thing that meets at a local university that they have to set up and tear down every week. You know, it's, it's actually here and it's staying. So yeah, it's a very valuable tool. It might not be how you, what you want or how you want it now, but it's a tool and you need to use it. 

TJ: Which tells us if there are empty churches in Com, communities around you. That community may respond well. Mm-hmm. If the church started meeting in that again, also, maybe you could pray if your church isn't very healthy. You could maybe even pray that the Lord would bring a church planter to the area who you could share your building with. Sure. There's all kinds of things like that.

Josh, you had a lot of opposition to that, and I don't mean to derail. No, it's okay. Talk all about buildings. Yep. We've tasted what it's like when churches are opposed to more churches coming into their area. Mm-hmm. And they block you. Mm-hmm. And won't even let you use their buildings. Mm-hmm. Even if you'll pay them.

Josh: Mm-hmm.

So finally, I would say begin by taking small bites. Rome wasn't built in a day. You know, I'm, I've recently bought a house, tore it down and built on top of it. And I'm consistently looking at my property saying, Josh, this is a 10 year project, not a 30 day project. So begin by taking small bites.

You, as you seek to saturate your area with the gospel, your circle of accountability as you multiply by church planning and revitalization, it's gonna take time. So just. Take some small bites. Find a gospel partner you can pray with, you can encourage, you can get at your circle of accountability together.

Be present in your community studying coffee shops, get involved, coach football, get on the board of your school, you know, these types of things. Get involved, show 'em you care. And then finally, mobilize your people to live incarnation, in the same way that your church has a circle of accountability.

So do your people. What relationships has God sovereignly placed them in? What unbelievers can they pray for and seek to have gospel conversations with? Go on prayer walks. Begin small groups geographically. If you have a collection of people in a town that has no healthy representation of the gospel, encourage them to meet once a week to pray, to study God's word and to love their community by serving it.

So take small bites and then the Lord I pray, will provide for you as you seek to multiply and prepare to multiply in your area. 

TJ: All right. Well we've covered a lot on this episode. Yes. Primarily we're encouraging you rural pastor to think about what's a step I can take toward multiplication. No matter what the state of my church is in, I'm praying that the Lord will make my church healthy, but I also recognize that we're responsible, responsible to some degree for the region.

And so we're gonna keep praying that Lord will help in that area as well. And we all need to be in this fight together. Cavalry is not coming. Is that the right word? Cavalry. Cavalry. Cavalry. Cavalry. Ca cavalry. I always mix up where Jesus was. Yeah. Ca cavalry. Alright. Yeah. 

Joe: There's an extra syllable and cavalry.

TJ: Cavalry. 

Joe: Not cavalry. 

TJ: Right? I think I said it right the first time. You did. I lost it. And then you're like, ba! 

Joe: No, none, none of the pastors are listening again. 

TJ: Yep. That's right. But anyway, there, no one's coming to, to save the day. You're there though. And you see the need. You're gonna have to figure out a way to meet it with the Lord's help.

For now though, you know what you should go do. 

Joe: Raise your Ebenezer. 

TJ: Bye-bye.