Making Friends in the Middle of Nowhere

Hosts: TJ Freeman & Josh MacClaren

Summary: In this episode, Pastor TJ Freeman and Pastor Joshua MacClaren, discuss the challenges and rewards of rural ministry, focusing on the importance of cultivating partnerships. They share personal experiences about feeling isolated and the steps taken to connect with other like-minded pastors and organizations. The conversation covers how partnerships can enhance ministry effectiveness, the benefits of learning from other church contexts, and practical steps to develop meaningful connections. TJ and Joshua also highlight their collaboration with organizations like ABWE and SCP to promote gospel-centered Antioch churches across North America and encourage rural pastors to take responsibility for their regions.

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Transcript

TJ: Do you ever feel like pastoring out there gets lonely? I know I felt like that before. Sometimes it can be really frustrating to be plowing hard soil all by yourself. If you've ever felt that, then stay tuned because on this episode we're gonna talk about how to find and cultivate partnerships for the sake of the gospel.

Well, hello, my name is TJ Freeman and I am a pastor at Christ Church in Wellsboro, Pennsylvania, and I am indeed a rural pastor. That means that just like you, I live and work in the middle of nowhere, and I have with me in a neighboring community, another pastor who happens to be on this episode. 

Joshua: What's up guys? This is Joshua McLaren, pastor of Christchurch in Mansfield. 

TJ: You guys remember Josh, right? 

Joshua: It's been a little bit.

TJ: Way, way back in the day. He used to help record these podcasts. 

Joshua: It's been like two episodes since I've been on I think. 

TJ: I don't even read remember the last time I saw you. 

Joshua: I was in Africa.

TJ: Yeah. Okay. Well, it is really good to have you back, Josh, as a partner. 

Joshua: Good to be here, brother. 

TJ: Yeah. Hey, we're here in a basement. 

Joshua: We are. We're back to the basement. 

TJ: Takes us to our roots because the first, I don't know season? 

Joshua: A hundred episodes. Yeah. 

TJ: We're recorded from the nursery basement. Yeah. Right. And now we are in a basement at A BWE Headquarters. 

Joshua: International Headquarters. 

TJ: Yes. Here in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Yeah. 

Joshua: It feels a little rural where we're at. 

TJ: It does. We can see the capital. From here in Harrisburg, but it's country. 

Joshua: I saw a Jake, it's Turkey season. I saw a Jake Turkey strutting during one of the presentations outside, so that's pretty rural.

TJ: Nice. You didn't tell me that. 

Joshua: Oh, I got a photo. It's okay. I got you. 

TJ: I also saw a Turkey pecking at a car during one of the presentations that we should have been in on, I guess. Yeah. I got you. I can fill you in. Yeah. Okay. Thanks. Yep. So here today, we're not meant to be talking about turkeys.

Nope. We are meant to be talking Turkey about how you can partner with other people for the sake of the gospel. Part of my testimony is that when I moved to rural Pennsylvania, I left behind a very active church scene. Lots of partners. Lots of resources, lots of attention and what, I don't mean attention on me, I mean attention to the growth or expansion of the church in a region.

And when I moved to Pennsylvania, I had a hard time making connections with guys. There was a sense in which I kind was like the guy who left and came back. There was another sense in which it was like, Hey, do we really need to talk about more churches in the area? The churches who are here are already struggling.

There were lots of barriers, and I felt like I was kind of on an island for a little while, and that got really discouraging to me. And I'm an introvert, so I don't need a lot of other people in my life, but even as an introvert, I got to the point where it was just really discouraging to feel like I was.

Laboring by myself. And I have like some hesitation in even talking like that because I don't wanna sound like the prophet who's like, Lord, am I the only one?

Joshua: So Well, I can comment. Yeah, go ahead. You came back to the region I was raised in. We were both raised there, but you know, you're a little older than me and, I remember being raised in the church, but raised almost like we were the only ones doing it right. Right.

We didn't do a ton. We didn't do any partnerships that I remember, and it took me needing to go to university almost two hours away and experience church life there. And I think in a little bit of a healthier context to see that, oh no, we're supposed to be partnering together because it's not just about this little local church's kingdom, it's about the kingdom.

TJ: Yeah. In a lot of rural communities, the church has historically been separated based on theological leanings. Yep. And here, you know, there was, there were some churches that were like circuit writing Methodist churches, and they were kind of in a camp. And then you have a lot of independent fundamental baptist churches in particular.

And the one that I grew up in, it was almost like a point of pride, how separate you are. Yeah. A separatist. Yeah. Yeah. From everybody else. On top of that, rural people tend to be pretty self-reliant and rugged, so there's not really an inbuilt sense of partnership there.

Now I think people pitch in and help their neighbors and things like that, but in terms of things like my theology and my relationship with God, that's kind of a private matter or a family matter, I think, for a lot of people. So there were just a lot of reasons that it felt lonely at first. Fast forward to today. Can you tell us a little bit about what we're doing here? 

Joshua: Yeah. We are gathering with two, organizations that are trying to take responsibility for North America. 

TJ: What do you mean by that? 

Joshua: So we're here, at A BWE International Headquarters gathering with two organizations. Every ethne, who's the North American kind of contingency of the A BWE and then saturation church planning north America.

And both organizations want to see, disciples made in all of North America. The way SCP divides that is there's over 3,400 counties and they wanna see what they would call an Antioch church. 

TJ: Why Antioch?

Joshua: Because the church in Antioch that ended up sending Paul and Barnabas are a good representation of a disciple making, disciple sending, evangelistic missions minded local congregation.

TJ: The church doesn't think it exists for itself. No. It realized it exists for the globe. Yep. And in Antioch's case, probably regionally is like a primary focus. Though certainly they had the ends of the earth in mind. 

Joshua: Yeah. And every Etna is really wanting to see the same thing. They're wanting to see disciples made throughout North America. In the context of the local church. These two organizations have gathered. We're here with S-C-P-N-A to see what does each organization bring to the table and how can we partner together to see a goal of seeing an Antioch Church in every county reached. 

TJ: So here's kind of how this happened from my perspective.

After I moved back, I was looking for like-minded guys to do ministry alongside, and I got reconnected with saturation church planting. I had some involvement with them when I was in Southwest Florida and they were sending some resources down there and thinking strategically with some churches in that area.

And there were guys in Syracuse, so not a rural context at all, but a difficult, hard to reach context for sure. And we just started visiting the Syracuse guys, inviting them down. Sometimes we'd go up and hang out with them sometimes, and they were just being our friends. 

Joshua: Mm-hmm. 

TJ: Without any expectation and helping us think through partnership in our area and maybe walking us through some of the ways that they developed partners.

Super helpful friendship. So here's one of the first things I wanted to say to the rural pastor listening is if there are regions you can get into that are a little bit bigger than your own and make friends with some churches there. You will learn some things that are really helpful from those guys, even though they're not rural.

We learn so much from the Syracuse guys. It's just been really helpful. 

Joshua: I'm here because of them. 

TJ: That's true. Tell us about that. 

Joshua: Yeah. So how recent was it in 2018? I came in July. How recent had you reconnected with them in Syracuse? 

TJ: I don't remember. 

Joshua: Okay. We, that we were doing a quarterly intensive training with one of the men, Dwight Smith, who had discipled the guys in Syracuse.

We were invited to come up and participate in their discipleship. I was in attendance at two meetings and my intention was to head off to Louisville for seminary, but one of the pastors at Missio asked me in a Chick-fil-A dining hall, which is where all religious and godly conversations happen, what would it look like for you to stay in the context that you're in because you want a pastor in that context?

You've done the college experience. What would it look like for you to get your degree online while serving in the context you eventually wanna pastor in? 

TJ: And you wanted out? 

Joshua: I wanted out. Yeah. We tried to leave three times. 

TJ: That's right. And I was praying the whole time that you wouldn't leave. So the Lord kept us. Yeah. That my friends did my bidding by getting you to stay, which was great. Praise the Lord. Yeah. Yeah. So having those kind of friendships it's not easy work because you know, we have to drive three hours to see those guys.

Yeah. You have to be intentional about it, so it's not simple, but it's worth trying to find some partners like that. 

Joshua: Here's a really practical example. Our staff is. Getting better at member care because we went and visited them. Yeah. And they just shared a little bit about what their kind of life for those who are set aside for full-time ministry or part-time ministry on their staff. They do a, they called it a member care monthly meeting where they talk about who's been there, who hasn't, who needs help, these types of things. We're doing that now and I think we're shepherding the flock better because of our partnership. 

TJ: For sure.

On top of connecting with guys in bigger places. Don't give up the hard work of trying to find or even cultivate guys in your own area who could get a hold of some convictions, and on some upcoming episodes we're gonna talk about some convictions that I think are non-negotiables that if you can develop some convictional alignment, even though things may be playing out differently in different church contexts, having some core convictions that you align around, you can actually run pretty far together when you have some things like that.

So if you can develop some friendships with guys in your broader region, you can talk about convictions with slowly over time, that would be a worthwhile investment as well. And realize God's not rushing and the relational, relational equity that you can develop with somebody over time is worth the effort today.

So build into relationships that maybe you're thinking like, Hey, we're kind of in different tribes or whatever. And start having conversations about some convictions and just see what the Lord does with that. Be an encouragement to each other. Pray for each other. Pray for each other's churches.

If it's a gospel preaching, Trinitarian church, you know you can pray for them, in earnest, and you can ask them to pray for you. The third thing, if I can just jump to that? Do it. Would be, we would like to have a conversation with you about where you're located as a listener.

If you're in the United States, it would be really helpful for us to know what county you live in, because we do wanna see an Antioch like church in every county in the us. That's why we're at the table with, every ethnic and with SCP because we believe that the Lord wants to be glorified from every place on the planet.

Habakkuk two 14. And it's gonna take healthy churches taking accountability or responsibility for a region and a county is just a really helpful breakdown. So if you wouldn't mind reaching out to me, my email is tj@brainerdinstitute.com. Brainerd with an E. B-R-A-I-N-E-R-D. Remember, I'm a nerd.

I'm a brain nerd. So, if you email tj@brainerdinstitute.com, I would just love to hear from you and maybe we could start connecting a little bit and just talking about what it looks like for us to see America saturated with the gospel through the spread of healthy churches, county by county.

So if that sounds interesting at all, please reach out. I'd love to talk more. No matter where you are in the globe though, we're responsible for 8 billion souls. One of the convictions we're gonna talk about in an upcoming episode is the way that God wants to work in the world, and it's through all of Christ's people.

So knowing who each other are and encouraging each other on this journey is really important. And you can have deep friendships with people who are a plane ride away from you and still be richly encouraged. We've experienced that a lot. 

So Josh, tell us what have we learned today? 

Joshua: Well, we've learned that we are not in this by ourselves. That the Lord intends for us to have gospel partners to learn from, to grow with, to encourage, to support, regardless of how much influence you think you have or resources for the kingdom you think you have the Lord's place to where you're at on purpose, to own the place that you're in and the people that not only you're shepherding, but the people in the region.

TJ: Own. What do you mean by that? 

Joshua: I mean take responsibility. Okay. Yeah, take responsibility. You know, we believe in a sovereign God who sovereignly places us in a time and space. Like there's a reason that you're pastoring in May of 2025, not May of 1925.

Yeah. In your location. So, in the weight of taking responsibility for an entire town or region by yourself. Is exhausting. You need help. So seek the Lord and go find help. Make friends. Yeah, make friends. Yeah. 

TJ: That's great. Well, hey, thanks for listening. This is a ministry of the Brainerd Institute for Rural Ministry.

We want to see a healthy church in every rural county. That's kind of the piece of the pie that we're trying to bite off is that. I absolutely wanna do everything we can to serve you in your rural context. We understand what it's like. I do think every rural context is a little bit different, but there's enough commonality that we can understand each other and speak at a level that is helpful in our rural context.

So we would just love to resource you in any way we can head on over to brainerd institute.com if you'd like more information. I also wanted to tell you about our upcoming conference this fall, October 10th and 11th in Wellsboro, Pennsylvania. Save the date. Registration will be up soon.

If you've not yet subscribed to our newsletter, you may want to go subscribe to that at brandedinstitute.com so that you can know exactly when registration opens up. We'll also announce it on here. We have Sean DeMars from the Room for Nuance Podcast, who is also the pastor at sixth Avenue in Decatur, Alabama. So he understands like the ghetto, and he understands rural, and he understands international. Sean is gonna be a blessing to us. Also returning for the third time. Let's go. Raymond Johnson from Christchurch West Chester.

And that brother is such a blessing. He understands our context well and so theologically deep yet. So personable. Yeah. Puts cookies on the bottom shelf. 

Joshua: He's like your best friend. He is. Puts the cookies on the bottom shelf. He takes the role of shepherding so seriously that when he's like service leading or preaching, you're like, wow, this dude is like so straight laced.

TJ: I know I wanna get saved again every time I hear him preach. 

Joshua: He's such a dear brother. 

TJ: Yeah, that's right. And we at this conference, pull out all the stops. So I had the experience of going to a large national conference where they took really good care of us. And I thought, man, in the rural context, we don't often get that level of care.

So we're trying to do everything we can to show rural pastors, Hey, we see you, we love you. What you're doing is important, and we just wanna show you a lot of hospitality and care while you're here, just so that you can be blessed. You've taken time out of your schedule to come to this conference, and we want you to walk away feeling refreshed and blessed, building relationships, growing in theology, and just having fun.

Wives are invited. Your teams are invited, so if you wanna bring elders, deacons, up and coming leaders and certainly spouses, we'd love to have you. We are a little limited on space this year, so I would encourage you once registration opens. Register early. For now though. We'll see you next time.

Joshua: Adios.

TJ: Bye-bye.