Why Rural Churches Can’t Skip Discipling

Hosts: TJ Freeman, Joe Wagner, and Josh MacClaren

Summary: In this episode of Rural Church Renewal, TJ, Joe, and Joshua discuss the misconceptions and challenges of discipleship in small, rural churches. They emphasize that discipling isn't just optional but a biblical mandate. The conversation sheds light on the sufficiency of Scripture in guiding discipleship efforts and how organic, relationship-based discipleship can be more effective than structured programs. They share personal anecdotes on how building relational equity can naturally lead to spiritual growth. The episode encourages church leaders and members to integrate discipleship into everyday interactions, making it a more natural and less time-consuming practice.

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Transcript

As a church leader, you've heard it before. Maybe you've even thought it yourself. Discipling is for people with more time, or more training, or more giftedness than I have. Maybe you've even convinced yourself that in a small, tight knit community, relationships just naturally form, and that takes care of discipling, so there's really no need to focus on it.

But let's be honest. Are those relationships really producing mature disciples of Christ? Or have we, in our rural context, quietly drifted away from the mission that Jesus gave us? To intentionally invest in others, so that they can grow to look more like Jesus.

If you've ever wrestled with the excuse of being too busy, Too under resourced, or too unsure of where to start then this episode is for you. By the time we get done, You're gonna see why discipling isn't just one of those nice to have things in your church, But a biblical mandate that you cannot afford to neglect. And here's the good news, You're not gonna need more programs or even more free time.

You just need to reframe how you're living and leading So let's talk about how. Well, hello, my name is TJ Freeman. I am an almost two decade rural pastor and an almost lifetime rural resident. And I am joined today by my friends. 

Hey, I'm Joe. I was born here in the rural area and continue to live here and never left.

I've been in rural ministry for almost 20 years and attended the School of Hard Knocks, so you don't have to. 

What's going on, guys? Joshua McLaren here, been serving in rural ministry for almost seven years. 

Well, brothers, we have been talking about the big theological topic, the sufficiency of scripture. That's been our focus on this season of Rural Church Renewal. Can you just kind of break that down for us real quick? What do we mean when we're talking about the sufficiency of scripture?

What we mean by the sufficiency of scripture, TJ, is that it is all we need for life and godliness. So that includes how we live our lives as pastors, as husbands, as fathers, as community members.

We go to God's word for the things we need. 

And that means going to God's word to understand how we should live out our life as a church. So as rural church leaders, we need to be always asking the question, how does the Bible inform what I'm doing? And Joe. 

Yes. 

You brought up a really interesting point. A lot of us think we know how the Bible informs our discipling, But in many cases, we're probably not actually doing it, right?

I would say, this would be my educated guess, and I think it's fairly educated after so many years of ministry, is the vast majority of Christians in the world church Never were intentionally discipled. And therefore, do not have a culture of discipleship, do not follow the biblical mandate to disciple, and don't know how to disciple as well.

That would be something that I have seen happen time and time and time and time again. And so, when we say that we believe in the sufficiency of scripture, We don't actually believe in the sufficiency of scripture when it comes to discipleship. 

I was watching a show. 

Yeah. 

And by watching, I mean listening.

I was driving and my kids were watching it in the back of the minivan. And it was Little House on the Prairie. And there's a preacher in Little House on the Prairie. And he's kind of got that classic good old boy country religion. And what he teaches the family is super unhelpful. And there's a lot of debate about, silly thing, you know, God understands the farmer, and he knows this about the farmer. And so therefore you kind of get a pass here on this scriptural issue. When somebody gets sick and dies, the theology that goes into that is poor, but here's what happens, there is a belief in God that is central and God is brought up in all of these topics.

The understanding of God is not informed by Scripture, but on what they've heard from a pastor in a pulpit. And on what the culture generally believes to be true at the time. And a lot of Christians think they were discipled, but no one has truly walked them through the Word of God to help assess where in their life they're not lined up with Scripture and where they need to go to be lined up with Scripture.

So, if we were going to offer a one or two sentence definition of what discipleship is, Josh, I'm looking at you so that you can be thinking about it. 

Ooh boy. 

Here goes. If you were going to explain to your great uncle, 73 years old, grew up in the rural church. Yep. 

Named? 

Ralph. 

Okay. That's a great choice.

It is. And you were going to tell him what discipleship is. What is discipleship? 

Ralph. Uncle Ralph. 

Hello, Uncle Ralph. I would encourage him with Matthew 28. Jesus gives us the command to make disciples. So okay, we're supposed to do it. Now you're asking the question, what is it? 

Yeah. What is it that we're supposed to do?

What are these people that we're supposed to be making? 

Yes. 

Use just the context of the verse that you just said. 

We're supposed to baptize them and teach them to obey all that Jesus commands. 

Bum, bum, bum. 

Because he's been given authority to save a people, and he uses us as his instruments to see those people become more like Christ.

And the power of the spirit. 

How does that happen? Just through preaching? 

No. 

Okay, preaching in Sunday school? 

Nope.

I thought you were going to keep rolling there. 

Nope. I thought that was sufficient. 

Preaching in Sunday School of Deer Drives. 

Oh! Amen. So, hey, what are you getting out there then? Deer Drives.

Where's that coming from? 

Oh, we're living in the real countryside, right? But also, you've got some relationship building going on there in Deer Drives. Or in turning the wrenches, or in going to the flea market. 

So we don't just have to do what I thought I had to do, what I thought discipleship was when I came here as an intern seven years ago.

So I was discipled really well, in the context I was in at a local university. So, I had a brother regularly sitting down with me, reading scripture with me, praying with me, taking inventory of my life, going through theological resources with me, and that's how I was trained to do it with others.

But the context was that these were college students with free time, after they were finished with their homework or before classes. That is not the case here in Tioga County. 

So that mathematical equation, that discipleship equation. 

Does not.

Eat, read, pray. Which is good. 

Always work here. It does in certain situations in context.

Let's explain just real quick why in a rural context that may not always be the best approach.

What are some struggles that we've found as we've tried to hand out books, for example? 

I ain't reading that. 

Right. 

No matter how small the book is, even, at times. 

Sometimes I'll do a book giveaway, and for whatever reason, nobody wants the book. And so then I have to say, okay, who had the most recent birthday, and then I just make them take the book.

This doesn't apply to everybody. Some people love to read. But in a rural place, there can be a bit of a culture that is There's not time to read or I'm just not interested in reading. I haven't developed that appetite. That can exist. Also what about theology? What have we discovered about the hunger for things that sound, theologically rich?

I'm trying not to be offensive. 

Yeah, that's fine. 

Yeah. There can be a tendency to shy away from reading. There can also be a tendency to shy away from theology. We've experienced that a little bit, Joe.

In a rural context. I think particular to a rural context. It could be other places, but there is a tendency to appreciate more plain spokenness than academic language or talk, and when we're doing discipleship, people might be scared off. It might be too academic or high minded. Perfect example. We have something called Sunday Night Theology here at Christ Church. And one of the Sunday Night Talks that was the most attended, and the most well received, was one called how to fight like a Christian and it was by a local pastor. Really super plain spoken and I appreciate people when they put the cookies on the bottom shelf. Man, He put the cookies on the bottom shelf.

It was super applicable. One of them, actually we didn't have it, But one of those that we knew would be really not nearly as well attended, was one that was gonna be called Cultural apologetics. And that just does not resonate with anybody, even though it's a fascinating topic, cultural apologetics and how to reach people groups that are unlike you. That just would not resonate with our folks.

So, people appreciate a plain spokenness and simplicity. 

So we're not saying that rural people are stupid. 

Not at all. 

They don't like academics, but there can be a cultural difference in the natural hunger For things like devouring a book or having a programmatic approach like what we talked about with you, Josh.

I really appreciate that plain spokenness aspect too, because sometimes it does take a level of thought and, creativity to be able to say things in a very plain spoken way and get right to the truth without beating around the bush. 

In fact, I think that's one of our most important challenges as rural pastors, as a side note, is to be simple and plain with Complex matters.

Really that's what every teacher is meant to be working on. So yeah, we can't have a Strictly programmatic approach. Although sometimes, like Josh for you it was effective to go through a bunch of books and have somebody. 

Well, you're not the average cat either, right? You have a little bit more academic brain And you are very curious about deeper sorts of issues as well. And there are some people out there in your in your congregations are like that and it will really really work for them.

So what then would you argue is a better approach?

I would argue for when we're talking about discipleship, you begin very relational and build up, I think, to borrow a term, you build up relational equity with that particular person. And it could just starts with a handshake. Starts with a hello and a hi.

Yeah. So that's part of, on our last episode, we talked about hospitality.

And so you meet somebody new at the church, your relational equity is zero at that point. And you, you do have to start with that, Hi, my name is TJ, what's your name? You're starting at something basic like that, but what you're looking for is something you're good at finding Joe, and that is Relational interest, where there's overlap.

There is a guy here at church who I have admired from afar for a long time. A little bit older than what I am, really cool dude, shake his hand probably multiple times every single Sunday. But our conversations have never moved past like a surface level, we've kind of both been figuring one another out.

And this is how it has gone with him. I've shaken his hand, and then he actually, one Sunday he approached me and said, on Facebook, which I don't go to a lot, but he said, you like some of the same musicians on Facebook that I like. And, kind of caught me a little bit off guard. 

And you're not, you're not talking about casting crowns.

No, I'm not talking about casting crowns, I'm talking about like Secular musicians like singer songwriters old school outlaw country sorts of musicians. 

I'm sorry for all the listeners. 

Relax. And so then that began a little bit of a conversation of Oh, I like so and so. And I like so and so. Have you heard so and so? And then it got into We showed up at a banquet together one time And we stood there for half an hour after everybody had left talking about different musicians and different concerts that we had gone to.

And then what that had done after two or three conversations like that, that evolved into talking about why we like these particular musicians and the lyrics that they write. And even though they are not Christians, how those particular lyrics pertain to a sinful and fallen condition. And how Christ offers the salvation and peace that would answer that particular fallen lyric.

And it turned into a spiritual conversation. We had built up equity with one another. We found out what we both appreciated. Conversations eventually then led to more spiritual sort of a nature, and we've got those doorways opened up now so that we're going to be able to approach one another, when we might have a spiritual need, or when he might have something that he needs help with, or I might have something we need help with. And if we were going to put this on a continuum, right, that follows along in hi, how are you, finding something that you're both interested in, conversing, talking about that, spending time with one another, and then how those conversations lead into spiritual matters.

So we've been talking to busy rural church leaders who don't feel like they have the margin to do discipling. They may feel like they don't know enough to do discipling. They may think that as a pastor, just by preaching or teaching a Sunday school class, they're doing discipling. Others may say, hey, everybody knows everybody and we don't need that kind of extra focus.

How would you package what you just said about going along that continuum from getting to know somebody, to building relational equity, to having spiritual conversations? How can you turn that into this is what discipling looks like in the church? 

It did not stop with our mutual interest. Because we were both Christians, it moved into a spiritual realm.

Don't just stop with mutual interest. Because we were just becoming friends at that point. And people who are not Christian can become friends. I can't even really remember the question that you were talking about, but it is integral for us in our discipling relationships to be able to move into the spiritual realm and be able to share spiritual things with one another.

Can you give me your question one more time? Yeah. I have an answer. 

That's okay. So what you're identifying is important. You're saying we do need to build friendships, but that our friendships can't just stop at commonalities and mutual interests. Now go to the rural pastor, the deacon in the church, the person on the search committee, the Sunday school teacher, the person who's just interested in helping their church be healthy.

So they're listening and they're going, okay, I'm hearing you. I want to do discipling, but I don't have time. I don't think I know enough. I'm not sure where to start. 

All of those times. That I met with him, and this happens often, were not times when we scheduled time to be together. It was taking advantage of every opportunity that I saw him on Sundays at a banquet when we were both together.

Actually, this, I'm not necessarily proud of this. He was doing security, and I was teaching a class that nobody showed up for. Should have both gone in to listen to the sermon. But we spent like 15 or 20 minutes in that classroom talking about spiritual matters. We didn't have the time to do that, but it was natural, and it was organic.

 When you're going to a church with somebody, you're gonna see them. Take the opportunity and the time to then build that mutual commonality. And then there's the opportunity to be able to, Hey, can we go get coffee? Or sometimes that even going and getting coffee and having lunch with somebody is something extra that they have to add into their day.

Hey, I have got to, it's a horrible example, go get gas for my lawnmower. Do you want me to pick you up along the way? And then I drop you back off and we can spend 15 or 20 minutes together in the car. 

Somebody called me the other day and said I'm going to Lowe's. Can you ride with me? 

Well, that's a perfect, perfect example. Here's another example. Different dude I have been doing very similar sorts of things with and he is a HVAC guy and so we had talked about in this particular case hunting, we had talked about hunting with our kids, we had built a little bit of a relationship, but he was my first telephone call when my gas heater went down. I was like, Johnny, can you walk me through this, help me out with this. And on that telephone call I could tell in his voice that he didn't have time to come on over, but still, that's not what I was aiming for. I was like, walk me through this, tell me what to do, how to fix this, and then that conversation turned into a more spiritual matters as well. So what you're doing is you are folding into your life other people in a real meaningful way. Building relationship, but then also in that meaningful relationship, you're bringing in spiritual matters as well.

Modeling for them what it means to be a Christian, as you follow Christ, they following you, goes back to 1 Corinthians 11, verse 1. And then when you start building up that equity, you begin to make time for one another. Your families get together and have dinner with one another. You pray together. How can I pray for you?

What's on your heart? They're going to start opening up and you're going to be building those relationships. And I think that that is really an element, a very important element of discipleship. 

What I hear you saying is we Should think of it a little more organically. Yes. As we develop relationships, we are looking for opportunities to intentionally go in a spiritual direction.

So six months ago there was an opportunity That was presented before me. A couple guys had come to me and they wanted to put together a system for discipleship. And they really kind of wanted to put some benchmarks here, and this is what you do. And this is what you do. I got some pushback from you, not because it was a horrible idea, But because it was not organic. And we were striving for organic in that particular way. So yeah having a little bit of structure, But then, bringing it together so that it is real and meaningful, and not just check boxes for you to check off.

So there are times where the church can help give space for those relationships to develop, and it may be a Sunday night theology class. It may be a Sunday school. 

Might be a women's Bible study. 

Right. And we do those to tee the ball up for those relationships to grow and develop and also to provide some instruction so that we're not just, you know, sharing our spiritual ignorance with each other, but we are learning and growing and developing together.

In our context, one of the things we've really leaned into is small groups. Small groups are great for discipleship, but also small groups are the incubator for one to one relationships. 

And a lot of our listeners come from a church where the church is a small group and you can think about that as well. You know, there's 20 of us. Let's get together and have it be that kind of an environment. 

Josh, you've seen this play out more than once where you've moved from common interests together into something spiritual. Can you share an example of how just natural, organic discipling has taken place in your church?

So I've seen this play out by taking specific interest in a hobby that a lot of the men in our area do, and that is hunting. So went from meeting one another to hunting together to then this brother and his family experienced a hardship, something that no one wants to see happen. It went from hunting to having each other in our homes and that just gave us opportunity to encourage one another in the word. I had the opportunity in that moment to encourage he and his wife in the word concerning the hardship that they experienced.

My wife and I were able to be there in a moment where they really needed someone to be there and encourage them in what the Word says. 

So what are the dangers then? If he doesn't have you in his life, because of the relationship you've built.

Sure.

And they experience a trial. Where could a Christian go that's not where they are going to want to end up, in the midst of something like that?

Probably any number of places. I mean, what comes to mind is some type of substance abuse. They don't have a biblical way to cope with grief. So then they flee to physical things that make them feel good. 

And there are Christians in our churches, for sure, who are secretly drinking too much or using some other kind of a substance to cope with their problems that is going to be happening.

And then I would say maybe on the other end of the spectrum is you flee to either unbiblical or worldly ways of dealing with things. Whether it's platitudes or whether it's it's just false doctrine that isn't relying on the sufficiency of Scripture. And you're finding your hope in things, like we read about in psalm 16. You're not finding your refuge or your hope in this good God who does good and promises good to you, instead You're finding your your hope in these other gods. Then David says in verse four that your sorrows are actually going to be multiplied when you pursue these other gods.

Yeah, so it's easy for us as Christians, even well meaning, when we hit a real difficult trial that we weren't expecting and maybe thought God would even spare us from something like this. We can get depressed. We can be discouraged. We can feed our mind with bad thoughts. We could also go to the other side and just act like it didn't happen and just plaster over it with some fake Christianity.

Yeah. And because you were in their life, you were able to build into them in a way where you're saying, here's what the Bible says. Draw them out so that they're able to apply the scripture and that's what discipling is. They look like Jesus more having walked through that trial with a brother and sister in Christ who could help them.

Here's what I think that you're going to find and it might happen as you bend your will towards following the commands of Jesus, understanding the sufficiency of Scripture in your case. It might take a little bit longer, but here's what I think that you're going to find. Christ has told us to make disciples.

He has told us that he's going to know who loves Him by obeying His commands, right? So the church is about making disciples and teaching what Jesus has taught. When people realize the gold of what that is, when people realize how valuable that is, people are going to start lighting up.

People are going to be more and more fulfilled in your church. People are going to start opening up as well. I have experienced it from a number of different families in different situations who have come from unhealthy churches where there is no discipleship. And they go into a healthy church where there is discipleship and they will say, I never knew it could be like this.

This is like coming home. This is what church is really supposed to be. There is a coldness without discipleship. That's right. There is a very surface level relationship without discipleship. And when you open up that door to discipleship and start building that culture, it will create a huge, huge change throughout your members, throughout the invisible Church there.

Part of the way we're talking about this keeps it a little bit in that theoretical plane, because when we use the, the phrase discipleship, or we talk about discipling. We assume a lot in using the word. And so what we've tried to bring before you on this episode is saying it's simply investing in other people and pointing them to Christ. Some of it's just in them hanging out with you and they're gonna see how a Christian does it. And you're not gonna be perfect. You're gonna snap at your kids, you're gonna scowl at the person who pulls out in front of you, whatever.

And they're going to see how a Christian responds when he fails. They're going to see how a Christian responds under pressure. They're going to see how a Christian invests in time just reading the word. You spending time with other people, your Christianity will come out, because what you speak about is an overflow of what's going on in your heart.

And you don't have to feel like it's always gonna be perfect, but you mean to be following Jesus, and you need to help other people do that as well. You also need to be seeking that out in your own life, by the way, and that's probably a topic for a whole nother day. You should be having somebody who's pouring into you in the same way, and what we want to say is that every person should be and can do this.

You don't have to come up with a program or a curriculum. You don't have to find oodles of extra time to have people over and just sit down and stare at each other and talk about the Bible. It's as simple as picking up somebody when you go to Lowe's, having somebody over for a meal, sitting down and saying, I'm going to be reading my Bible.

Would you like to come on in and sit and read your Bible, too? It's real basic, real simple, building relationships, liking each other, investing in each other, finding commonalities, and then looking for ways that you can lead that naturally in a spiritual direction. So if we were to come up with a takeaway, guys, what would be a challenge you could give?

I think it's as simple as identify someone that you'd like to begin investing in. Go shake their hand. Find some common interest and see where the Lord goes after that. 

So yeah, maybe for the next six months you just have one person that you're regularly investing in on purpose. Trying to get to know them and seeing if you can steer that in a spiritual direction.

See if you can grow an appetite for it in your own life. That would be a challenge, I think, for you. Don't be afraid of discipleship. Be a little bit more spiritually up and at home. Husbands and wives together start building discipleship in your family with your kids, with your adult parents, well, obviously your parents are going to be adults, but with your families as a whole.

Start there and then I think it will flow out of that as well to the rest of the church.

Maybe. let some of the pressure of feeling like church has to be this big programmed thing and the life of the church has to be all structured in this way. Structure is good. But let some of that pressure go off you, and just lean into this as the primary thing that Christians are called to do, is to love each other and help each other look more like Christ. And with that we'll see you next time. 

Adios.

Raise your Ebenezer.